Does anyone here have any pets? I have small birds and a rabbit. I live in a small apartment, which is the reason I haven't bought a kiln or torch items. I do not use teflon cookware because it can release PTFE's into the air which kill birds. I have been teetering on the idea of buying a small butane torch for small finding work, but I have a fear the fumes, even if well ventilated could harm or kill my pets.

I would only be using the torch to make small items like copper head pins anyway. I've noticed the copper head pins I see online have that shiny foil like finish but if the torch is too dangerous I'll just buy the head pins and findings. If the foil like luster is all I can get out of just a torch alone then I'll probably drop the whole idea since the risks may not be worth it. Thanks for any information.

I had a cockatoo in my studio for a couple of years and the torch fumes didn't seem to bother him all that much but the pickle pot smell he didn't like. I found him a new home because of his habit while out of the cage to chew up all manner of things, worse than the dogs, he is now sixteen years old. If you want to be absolutely sure about the health of your birds and small animals talk to their veterinarian, he or she will know best about these kinds of hazards.

 Thanks for sharing your experience. Now I know the idea of having birds and a soldering station in a nearby proximity isn't totally off limits. They're probably a good 20 feet out of the way. But I will speak to our vet about it now, first.

 

I have no concerns about my kitties,  but I know parrots can be very sensitive to fumes...  I don't have any experiences to relate, but I think you are doing the right thing to be cautious.   Can you keep the cage away from the room you are doing the soldering in, and ventilate it well?  Even a window fan blowing out might be sufficient.  For simple heating, to make head pins, I think the risk would probably be minimal, but pickle and flux I would be cautious about, personally.

  Normal 0 21 Most birds are very sensitive to carbon monoxide. Therefore, the miners still took until the 50's of the 20th century, one or more birds in the coal mines. When the bird fell dead, it was high time for the miners to leave the mine.
Carbon monoxide, however, should not arise on the proper use of a torch.

I do beading at my dining room table. There are two windows just to my right within about 3-4 feet. Very close actually. The birds are about 20-25 feet around a corner all the way almost in the corner of the living room. I can't actually see them unless I walked to the windows. However, things like PTFE (polytetrafluoroethylene) emissions in teflon burning (non stick pans) are so noxious to birds I wouldn't even use non-stick in the same house as them. That is why I have a pre-existing caution to burning anything around them. Even using a space heater can have deadly effects(burning ceramic) if it is poorly made. I'm betting I could use the metal basin with a fan and drying machine vent tube to the window. However at this point, my wife might kill me for bringing more clutter into the apartment.

My best advice is to keep the wife happy! I had exhaust running the whole time in my studio with my bird so there was no build up of fumes.If there is a community college, community arts program near by that you can participate in that may be a good alternative. If you look under "resources" above you can then look under "classes" by state and hopefully fine one near you.

 New Paltz college is nearby but that would be more like a dream. I know there's a vocational school that does seasonal wire jewelry classes in my county. I will seriously consider that class now. Upon further thought, I may forego anything that creates fumes for the time being. I feed a lot of wild birds off the deck of my third floor apartment. There is a very large maple tree only a few feet outside my window where they hang out. It goes to logic that the vent would be blowing in that tree's direction. Even at this time of year(I live in NY) I get many "visitors." All the reason more to push for moving into a house. Too many projects, too little space.

New Paltz has some very good names on faculty, WOW! I think I'd check and see if they have any evening classes or change my work schedule.

Keith, you live in NYC, what about all the pollution from cars,etc.? In toxicology the danger is in the dose. If the maple tree isn't being harmed from the already not so clean air,I doubt the fumes from a tiny butane torch especially if exhausted will harm anything. If you burnt it hours on end in a tiny confined spot it may be a problem. I live in NW Ohio, we feed birds all year round. Many species come to our feeders. My Drathaar is in my shop alot, she sleeps on my easy chair. I think as careful as you are a simple exhaust fan is the answer.Btw, I have a 3 trunked maple approx. 80' tall & over 100 yrs. old.

mtlctr

 

Sorry not in NYC. NY state. I actually live at the southern tip of the catskills. About 10 minutes from the 1969 bethel woodstock venue. Very pretty area. I hate the idea of living in NYC because of the environmental issues. There was a study done recently where children wore these backpacks that detected the air quality they were exposed to. The results were shocking. But in my situation you are right. I was thinking about this today, and I think with a good exhaust and a little intermittent use with a small butane torch the wildlife really wont be harmed. They don't live outside my window anyway.

I feel the rest of you deserve a little more background. My father is a welder, (former shop welder) so I'm used to the stench when he uses a propane torch or a big acetlyne torch in his garage, which by the way, is not a very well ventilated place. I grew up thinking an open garage door was proper ventilation. I learned in the last few years this wasn't really true. My father doesn't weld a lot anymore because he had a "non-cancerous" tumor development we caught 2 years ago(tumor removed one year ago) and other than the flashing from the arc welder which his doctor said could bring on the seizures he was already having, the fumes may or may not have had something to do with the inital tumor development. We'll never really know. Needless to say he rarely welds anymore. It's a shame, because since I actually became more interested in welding he hasn't really been able to give me on hands instruction. My wife also is more against me getting involved in that since seeing what happened to dad. I was always a drawing artist so I've turned to jewelry since it seems a little less destructive and more gratifying in the end. My wife and female family can wear the things I make.

There is a project in the January 2009 issue of art jewelry mag,(pg 44), "Get to know fine-silver wire." which really drew my interest to the torch use. Has anyone tried this project? It's a "fuse and ball" style of silver working with a torch used to make a chain for a braclet or necklace. It says "beginner," but looks like a lot of torch work, and this is about the level of "fuming" I will be whipping up when I finally buy a mini torch.

Thanks for the comments so far, they really have been very insightful. I'm glad to see there are other pet owners who are avid metalsmiths. I thought maybe I was being totally irresponsible thinking I could do anything like this around them. Hence, my delay.

 

I think a little hand held torch, similar to a culinary torch, is really not much of a concern in terms of creating fumes.  It's WHAT you heat, not the torch, and fusing fine silver isn't going to create much aerosol at all.  Butane is pretty clean burning.  I'm pretty sure it is MUCH safer than cooking on a natural gas stove, which is pretty safe.  When you get into fluxes and sintering metal clay and so forth, I personally would begin to worry about birds in the same room, but venting to the outdoors any fumes are going to disperse awfully fast, they aren't going to hang around outside the window for any length of time. 

OTOH, if it's so worrying it's no fun...  that's no fun!

On the same sort of issue, but in a slightly different way.... I'm trying to have another baby. What potential hazards should I be eliminating from my workspace? I use Handy Flux and a Butane/propane mix torch. My pickle is vinegar and salt and I use rouge and Zam for final polishes. I ventilate the room with an open door and when the weather is fine, an open window, too. I also use a respirator and safety goggles for everything from sawing to polishing. I wash my hands thoroughly after each session in the workroom.

How much flux etc can be absorbed by the skin, breathed in etc before it becomes hazardous? What about gas emission from my torch? Is there a safer flux to use or are they all awful, fluoride containing toxic nightmares?

What other stuff can I eliminate or make safer for myself and potential?

Maille, I doubt you can do any more than what you're doing now. You're gonna be so uptight about the "fumes" you won't be able to concieve.If you're that worried about it I would chose another hobby/ craft/art whatever you call it. I don't heat my pickle anymore and I work in my basement that's open but not vented for right now anyway.But thats about it.My father worked over an open molten lead pot for alot of his 40 yrs. at his work place, did soldering with no special equipment and he lived to be 86. He died from heart failure, he didn't have dementia or Alzhiemers and ..........he had no detectable level of lead in his body. Like I said in an earlier post , the danger is in the dose (poison / toxins). The human body is not that easy to fool , if we were as suseptable as some opine, we'd all be dead prematurely. I'd be more worried about the sun exposure down there, the little almost invisable jelly fish that kill you and some rogue kangaroo crashing into your house. ;~)

G'day, Ms. Maillefantasy,

mtlctr

M. Fantasy, I suggest that you take a look at the Orchid/Ganoksin archives( http://www.ganoksin.com/index.htm ) for a detailed discussion on this subject. While the adult body may be able to survive many adverse conditions a developing one may not so I can understand you concern. You are doing a good job in the area of protecting your lungs but there are things that are absorbed through the skin and you need to identify these also and protect against them too.

I'd be more worried about the sun exposure down there, the little almost invisable jelly fish that kill you and some rogue kangaroo crashing into your house. ;~)

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha. That was funny! Where I live, we are littered along our beach at the moment with beautiful moon jellyfish. We've had some really high tides and they are all stranded when the tide goes out. Nothing fatal here, except the snakes (I think we have 3 out of the top 10 most deadly), spiders (redbacks, white tails, no funnelwebs, they live in NSW), sharks (including the big stingrays and great whites, tigers etc.), blue-ringed octopus (They're REALLY bad) and very, very local and of course, those darned rogue kangaroos. Hahahahaha. As for sunburn, I'm a moon worshipper, so not your average Bronzed Aussie. Hats, sunscreen and long sleeves when the family goes to the beach. Hi Mr mtlctr!

Anyway back to the topic at hand. I agree, Bentiron, it's the stuff that I'm absorbing through my skin that I'm more worried about. I should run a materials safety check on the flux and the solder fumes. I forgot about archiving through Ganoksin, so I'll do that in a sec. I did read on a bottle of MAPP that it's not safe for pregnancy, so that's one thing for future reference. At my age, I feel I need to be a little more cautious than if I were in my 20's, you know.

I guess the reality is, that for every 5 people who say, go and bead for a while, there'll be 1 who says that they worked in an industrial nuclear waste disposal station with no safety gear who conceived and carried with no problems either to themselves or to their offspring. 

Thank-you for your replies and good luck with the pet issue, Keith R. I remember reading that Bentiron always has several dogs and assorted animals in his workstudio and several others who have cats around. I also agree with Edmund about birds being used in mines to detect high levels of CO, but the first sign was that they would stop singing (Canaries were used, I believe), before they dropped dead, so maybe keep an ear out. I think there would be other signs in animals, such as listlessness, feather or fur droppout etc. You know your pets and you sound like you'd be concerned enough about them to keep a check on how they're coping. As many others have said here, I would think that making copper headpins and fine silver ball and fusing techniques from the magazine would be relatively safe. What about clearing out the space and making a large quantity in one go, completely ventilating afterwards and then restoring the animals to their places. Might be better than doing lots of smaller jobs and fretting the whole time?

Thank-you again for your replies.

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You forgot the snakes! You have some wonderfully venomous ones down there. Oh well, one can't get to worry about everything I guess. MAPP gas I wouldn't have guessed that one unless you were huffing it. I would be a bit concerned about heavy metal dust, copper, lead, silver, etc. I suppose that you will be making a lot of chain maille now instead of soldering.

I did mention snakes. Around here we only have 3 of the most venomous, the tiger, eastern brown (king brown is worse but haven't seen one here....yet) and the copperhead.